Issues with the Secondary

[Cerebral]

I think everyone has realized at this point that Greg Marshall's schemes are archaic and they're flat out not working. However, does anyone have issues with the personnel? I'm fine with Burnett, Thompson, and Grymes but the other two have been big issues in my mind.

Marcel Young has looked terrible as a replacement for Weldon Brown. I was optimistic he could step in and make a difference due to his superior size but I can't even count the number of times he has been two or three steps behind the opposing receiver in coverage. He has 19 tackles already this season which puts him up amongst the linebackers in the CFL and those tackles are certainly not a positive in this case.

Donovan Alexander simply doesn't look like a quality safety to me and he spends far too many games being completely invisible. I know his birth certificate makes him a valuable asset in the secondary but would we not be better off finding an American who can do a satisfactory job in the middle and then fix the ratio issues elsewhere? We have a Canadian kicker, two quality Canadian receivers, and two Canadians who can start on the defensive line - do we really need a Canadian at safety?

Chris Rwabukamba looked awful last game stepping in for Burnett. He was being picked on all night long and I don't think he has the skills to be a regular starter in the CFL. I understand he was stepping in as an injury replacement but it looks to me like we need far better depth in the secondary if we want to compete.

I guess the key question is, would replacing Marshall completely fix these issues or do we need to find some different players as well? I would argue Marshall is a huge issue thus far but we are going to need to bring in some quality NFL cuts as well if we want to have any chance of shoring up this defence this season. The scary thing is that Grymes looks awesome this season as a rookie and yet our secondary is still in shambles.

[danlaurin]

Re: Issues with the Secondary

I think everyone has realized at this point that Greg Marshall's schemes are archaic and they're flat out not working. However, does anyone have issues with the personnel? I'm fine with Burnett, Thompson, and Grymes but the other two have been big issues in my mind.

Marcel Young has looked terrible as a replacement for Weldon Brown. I was optimistic he could step in and make a difference due to his superior size but I can't even count the number of times he has been two or three steps behind the opposing receiver in coverage. He has 19 tackles already this season which puts him up amongst the linebackers in the CFL and those tackles are certainly not a positive in this case.

Donovan Alexander simply doesn't look like a quality safety to me and he spends far too many games being completely invisible. I know his birth certificate makes him a valuable asset in the secondary but would we not be better off finding an American who can do a satisfactory job in the middle and then fix the ratio issues elsewhere? We have a Canadian kicker, two quality Canadian receivers, and two Canadians who can start on the defensive line - do we really need a Canadian at safety?

Chris Rwabukamba looked awful last game stepping in for Burnett. He was being picked on all night long and I don't think he has the skills to be a regular starter in the CFL. I understand he was stepping in as an injury replacement but it looks to me like we need far better depth in the secondary if we want to compete.

I guess the key question is, would replacing Marshall completely fix these issues or do we need to find some different players as well? I would argue Marshall is a huge issue thus far but we are going to need to bring in some quality NFL cuts as well if we want to have any chance of shoring up this defence this season. The scary thing is that Grymes looks awesome this season as a rookie and yet our secondary is still in shambles.

I think Young Et Al will be fine the main issue this season over last is that our Line and Linebackers are not getting sufficient pressure on opposing QBs to force them to make mistakes.

This issue stems from the main trunk which is Marshall's Vanilla defense. If we had a Stubler, Nelson, or Jones as DC with their aggressive styles we have the personnel to play and Beat anyone.

[Looner]

Re: Issues with the Secondary

I think Young Et Al will be fine the main issue this season over last is that our Line and Linebackers are not getting sufficient pressure on opposing QBs to force them to make mistakes.

This issue stems from the main trunk which is Marshall's Vanilla defense. If we had a Stubler, Nelson, or Jones as DC with their aggressive styles we have the personnel to play and Beat anyone.

X2 fix the system first

[Sectionq]

Re: Issues with the Secondary

I think everyone has realized at this point that Greg Marshall's schemes are archaic and they're flat out not working. However, does anyone have issues with the personnel? I'm fine with Burnett, Thompson, and Grymes but the other two have been big issues in my mind.

Marcel Young has looked terrible as a replacement for Weldon Brown. I was optimistic he could step in and make a difference due to his superior size but I can't even count the number of times he has been two or three steps behind the opposing receiver in coverage. He has 19 tackles already this season which puts him up amongst the linebackers in the CFL and those tackles are certainly not a positive in this case.

Donovan Alexander simply doesn't look like a quality safety to me and he spends far too many games being completely invisible. I know his birth certificate makes him a valuable asset in the secondary but would we not be better off finding an American who can do a satisfactory job in the middle and then fix the ratio issues elsewhere? We have a Canadian kicker, two quality Canadian receivers, and two Canadians who can start on the defensive line - do we really need a Canadian at safety?

Chris Rwabukamba looked awful last game stepping in for Burnett. He was being picked on all night long and I don't think he has the skills to be a regular starter in the CFL. I understand he was stepping in as an injury replacement but it looks to me like we need far better depth in the secondary if we want to compete.

I guess the key question is, would replacing Marshall completely fix these issues or do we need to find some different players as well? I would argue Marshall is a huge issue thus far but we are going to need to bring in some quality NFL cuts as well if we want to have any chance of shoring up this defence this season. The scary thing is that Grymes looks awesome this season as a rookie and yet our secondary is still in shambles.

You really think the secondary is bad?

Here is a run down of the yards given up over the first 6 games.
1) 209 pass - 144 combined rush
2) 234 pass - 66 rush
3) 158 pass - 197 rush
4) 284 pass - 136 rush
5) 202 pass - 170 rush
6) 293 pass - 156 rush

In a passing league, the Esks haven't given up a 300 yard game yet and only 2 -250 yr games. That's pretty damn good to me yet look at the freaking rushing yards.

[turftoe27]

Re: Issues with the Secondary

I have more confidence in our DB coach than any other Esk coach. Hard to cover when the QB has time to look at all his options, plus not much of a run stopping D in front of them. Brad Miller has had both Young and Rwabukamba as players when he was a position coach in Hamilton . If we were to choose an interm head coach I think Miller is the one I would go with. He has coached all D positions in the CFL and been an asst. head coach with Hamilton , Mtl. and Edm. Plus he was on the D staff of the Packers for 4 yrs. With Burnett back it's a decent secondary.

[Cerebral]

Re: Issues with the Secondary

You really think the secondary is bad?

Here is a run down of the yards given up over the first 6 games.
1) 209 pass - 144 combined rush
2) 234 pass - 66 rush
3) 158 pass - 197 rush
4) 284 pass - 136 rush
5) 202 pass - 170 rush
6) 293 pass - 156 rush

In a passing league, the Esks haven't given up a 300 yard game yet and only 2 -250 yr games. That's pretty damn good to me yet look at the freaking rushing yards.

I wouldn't really count games 2 and 3 due to the incredible weather conditions. Taking away those games, look at the completition percentage for the opposing starting quarterbacks in our remaining games:

Game 1: 64% (season: 69%)
Game 4: 75% (season: 66%)
Game 5: 66% (season: 60%)
Game 6: 77% (season: 66%)

That's a 71% pass completition percentage. The scary thing is that in the last three games we've played, opposing quarterbacks have been almost 10% more accurate against the Eskimos than in games against other teams. The raw yardage might not be as high as some other teams but that is partially due to the success those teams have had on the ground (which has the impact of shortening the game and thus lowering the pass opportunities) and also because those teams have been typically winning and thus have been able to pound the ball on the ground.

I fully agree that we have a ton of other issues on this team (the linebackers and defensive line obviously need to be far more effective at stopping the run) but opposing quarterbacks have been finding it far too easy to find their targets against us. Last game against Hamilton, Burris just dropped back three steps and found a wide open receiver across the middle consistently all game long. Part of that (and likely a large part) rests with the defensive game planning of Marshall but part of it rests on the inability of some of our DBs to actually cover their men.

[Sectionq]

Re: Issues with the Secondary

I wouldn't really count games 2 and 3 due to the incredible weather conditions. Taking away those games, look at the completition percentage for the opposing starting quarterbacks in our remaining games:

Game 1: 64% (season: 69%)
Game 4: 75% (season: 66%)
Game 5: 66% (season: 60%)
Game 6: 77% (season: 66%)

That's a 71% pass completition percentage. The scary thing is that in the last three games we've played, opposing quarterbacks have been almost 10% more accurate against the Eskimos than in games against other teams. The raw yardage might not be as high as some other teams but that is partially due to the success those teams have had on the ground (which has the impact of shortening the game and thus lowering the pass opportunities) and also because those teams have been typically winning and thus have been able to pound the ball on the ground.

I fully agree that we have a ton of other issues on this team (the linebackers and defensive line obviously need to be far more effective at stopping the run) but opposing quarterbacks have been finding it far too easy to find their targets against us. Last game against Hamilton, Burris just dropped back three steps and found a wide open receiver across the middle consistently all game long. Part of that (and likely a large part) rests with the defensive game planning of Marshall but part of it rests on the inability of some of our DBs to actually cover their men.

Who cares about the completion percentage! The amount of passing yards is a true indicator. Screen passes and hitch screens count as a completion. How can your secondary stop those? A 3 yard out is a completion. THe amount of rushing yards they are giving up is truly the alarming stat. Rushing yards burn up clock time, they beat up the defense and grind the game out.

[Angelus]

Re: Issues with the Secondary

Who cares about the completion percentage! The amount of passing yards is a true indicator. Screen passes and hitch screens count as a completion. How can your secondary stop those? A 3 yard out is a completion. THe amount of rushing yards they are giving up is truly the alarming stat. Rushing yards burn up clock time, they beat up the defense and grind the game out.

You could have come back with stats like the Esks being best in the league when it comes to giving up attempts and completions and second best in average yards passing...or even middle of the pack when it comes to completion percentage as a whole.

But saying "who cares about completion percentage" is kind of a bad argument.

[stamphater]

Re: Issues with the Secondary

I think our secondary has been the one who has stepped up. Passes against us tend to come on the zone that Marshall is running. Grymes has been a VERY pleasent surprise! Our secondary is asked to cover for far too long on most plays thanks to our front four. Our LBs consistently look short on their drops. There is plenty of complaints towards our D-coord and warranted! But I think we have a bunch of playmakers in our front 7 not making plays. The positive side....they are too good to not make plays moving forward....

[Cerebral]

Re: Issues with the Secondary

Who cares about the completion percentage! The amount of passing yards is a true indicator. Screen passes and hitch screens count as a completion. How can your secondary stop those? A 3 yard out is a completion. THe amount of rushing yards they are giving up is truly the alarming stat. Rushing yards burn up clock time, they beat up the defense and grind the game out.

I certainly care about completion percentage. Like I said, opposing QBs are almost ten percent more accurate against the Eskies than other teams over the last three games - it's not like they're throwing substantially more screen passes against us! There are certainly other holes this team needs to fill but I'm having issues with Young and Alexander starting. One of the positives is that the team does have some solid players in the secondary including a huge standout in Grymes - replace Alexander and Young with two competent players and I think we see a big improvement regardless of what we end up doing with our coaching, linebackers, or defensive line.

I totally would have bought the weak defensive line argument a few weeks ago but last week's game against Hamilton was pretty telling. Despite our defensive line getting four sacks, Burris still completed 77% of his passes and put up 300 yards on us. A lot of his passing yards were coming off of three step drops and slants across the middle so it's not like the defensive line even had time to disrupt those plays.

[stamphater]

Re: Issues with the Secondary

I certainly care about completion percentage. Like I said, opposing QBs are almost ten percent more accurate against the Eskies than other teams over the last three games - it's not like they're throwing substantially more screen passes against us! There are certainly other holes this team needs to fill but I'm having issues with Young and Alexander starting. One of the positives is that the team does have some solid players in the secondary including a huge standout in Grymes - replace Alexander and Young with two competent players and I think we see a big improvement regardless of what we end up doing with our coaching, linebackers, or defensive line.

I totally would have bought the weak defensive line argument a few weeks ago but last week's game against Hamilton was pretty telling. Despite our defensive line getting four sacks, Burris still completed 77% of his passes and put up 300 yards on us. A lot of his passing yards were coming off of three step drops and slants across the middle so it's not like the defensive line even had time to disrupt those plays.

Yes, four sacks...when we still had no pressure. I respect you and assume you watched the game...and if you did you will clearly see we had little pressure most of the game. Alexander would be an upgrade but where do we find the upgrade? The instincts for a safety isn't learnt in a day. And your other comments bring problems too....we have no depth at DB. Our nickelback sets have LBs coming in...And that is a complete failure moving forward. LB are great for special teams but we have 9 on the starting roster...WTF???

[Cerebral]

Re: Issues with the Secondary

Yes, four sacks...when we still had no pressure. I respect you and assume you watched the game...and if you did you will clearly see we had little pressure most of the game. Alexander would be an upgrade but where do we find the upgrade? The instincts for a safety isn't learnt in a day. And your other comments bring problems too....we have no depth at DB. Our nickelback sets have LBs coming in...And that is a complete failure moving forward. LB are great for special teams but we have 9 on the starting roster...WTF???

I thought we had more pressure in the Hamilton game than we have had in a few recent ones. More importantly though, more of the completed passes weren't a result of lack of pressure in my mind - they were a combination of a soft zone that had way too many holes in the middle and a lack of competent coverage by a few of our DBs.

I 100% agree on the depth issue though - we've gone way overboard on linebackers and that has come at the detriment of other areas on the field. I have no idea where we find the upgrades but the key is that we actually start looking. With NFL cuts coming soon, I'm sure we can find a player or two that can come in and compete. I wouldn't be shocked if we get Rod Williams back at least - he'd be a step up on Young.

[danlaurin]

Re: Issues with the Secondary

I think our secondary has been the one who has stepped up. Passes against us tend to come on the zone that Marshall is running. Grymes has been a VERY pleasent surprise! Our secondary is asked to cover for far too long on most plays thanks to our front four. Our LBs consistently look short on their drops. There is plenty of complaints towards our D-coord and warranted! But I think we have a bunch of playmakers in our front 7 not making plays. The positive side....they are too good to not make plays moving forward....

I agree as a former CB in High school and a season in university. Any DB will lose contain unless they are holding onto their receiver (either they will cut inside or outsde and unless you are faster you are in trouble.) My Coach said we had to blanket a receiver for 5-6 steamboats, and just cover for 2 more any longer and the D-line or LBs weren't doing their job.

If our D-coordinator would take chances /Design aggressive plays for our front 7 the DB's would be fine.

[Diesel]

Re: Issues with the Secondary

Burris could have thrown a blanlet down and had a picnic in the pocket most of the game cos we had little pressure on him

[Beerfish]

Re: Issues with the Secondary

The biggest issue with the Esks pass defense is 1st or 2nd and long. They are constantly giving up 16 yard plays when the other team needs to gain 15. Passive zone.

Rwabukamba was going to get torched constantly the minute they put him out there. There have been very few NI corners that have ever been able to play well long term (Davis Sanchez) in almost all other cases teams tick these guys out there hoping they can do the job and they just get picked on and killed over a few games.

As for Alexander, he's the same as last year. Slow to show up in support, takes bad angles and tries to avoid contact. The defense is frustrating because it is the old bend but not break philosophy but it is painful to watch. Still upset they let Weldon Brown go.