I have a question about the lockout.

[Kamal]

Hi everybody,

I have a question about the lockout.

The player's union says that a salary cap is "unfair and unacceptable".

Can anyone tell me why this is? Why is a salary cap unfair to the players? So far, nobody has been able to explain why this is, and the NHLPA has never explained why a cap is unfair. No player has either.

Thanks in advance for your input.

K

[Esks996]

Re: I have a question about the lockout.

By not accepting the proposed CBA alternatives from the NHL, the union is rejecting them, claiming that a salary cap will restrict owners from dishing out the type of salaries a future star "deserves." Also, it will reduce the amount an expired contract can be reworked because the owner will have to restrict it to fit within the cap.

A player like Laraque 'claims' that if it were not for the lockout in '95, he would not have received the type of contract he has now. The players are being essentially brainwashed to believe that the league is fudging their numbers, and that no team would be in existence if the league lost the supposed 227 million they are claiming.

What he doesn't know is that if the season continued one more year under the current CBA, where the owners are coughing up 75% of revenues to players salaries, the Oilers would have folded following the season. Teams like Edmonton need the reconstructed CBA to limit salaries to somewhere under 60% cost of total income to continue existence. If you don't believe me, look at the increase in the average season ticket prices compared from the '96 season to the present. A salary cap is the most logical solution, for now, and for 20 years down the road.

This is just a small chunk of the pie. I hope it helps somewhat. But as fans, I think we are being left out in the dark on a lot of issues as well.

[Muley69]

Re: I have a question about the lockout.

Uh...here is a simple answer to why the Union thinks it is "unfair".


A salary cap restricts the total salary that an owner can pay the players.

If the salary cap that the league wants to implement will restrict a player to *only* making 2 million a season, then people like Markus Naslund, Mats Sundin...etc...will wind up with a pay cut since they make more than that amount now

If the salary cap that the league wants to implement will restrict the total team salary by team, then the MOST that a team could pay ALL players is going to be limited. For example, if the TOTAL TEAM cap is set at $45 Million, then teams like the Rangers, Stars, and Leafs will have to cut back individual player salaries.


This is the only basis which it is unfair -- but I'm not sure anyone will cry the NHLPA a river if their members earn 1.5 million a season (rather than the average 1.8 million they earn, on average, now).

[Phrost]

Re: I have a question about the lockout.

It is the owners fault that they let it get this bad, there is no doubt about that...granted I truly believe a salary cap is needed or we wont be seeing pro hockey in Edmonton much longer. I like Laraque but I find it disturbing that a professional hockey player such as him thinks he is worth the 1.4 million dollars. He dont score goals, he isnt a premier goaltender, not the best defensive forward...heck he doesnt even fight that much anymore.

The guy has an annual salary of 1.4 million, thats something most people wont ever see in their lives. I think the leagues superstars should be paid well but guys like Laraque and others who arent the biggest team contributors certainly dont deserve that amount.

Not to mention no one is saying that with a salary cap a player cant get paid as well.

[Angelus]

Re: I have a question about the lockout.

Yeah, the Oilers had a cash call about a year ago and said it would be the last time they would do that. So without a salary cap (or at the very least revenue sharing), they'll be up for sale.

[Esks996]

Re: I have a question about the lockout.

It is the owners fault that they let it get this bad, there is no doubt about that

True, very true. But give them credit for getting together and agreeing to fix this mess.

[Phrost]

Re: I have a question about the lockout.

Yeah but they still shouldnt of been this idiotic to let it get this bad. I dont think many professional athletes are worth over 2 million. They get to play a game they love while honest working people struggle to pay bills. But in no way do I blame the players in this, this lockout is because the owners cant keep themselves under control. Guys with big pockets dont know how to properly spend money.

[Nanook]

Re: I have a question about the lockout.

It is the owners fault that they let it get this bad, there is no doubt about that...granted I truly believe a salary cap is needed or we wont be seeing pro hockey in Edmonton much longer. I like Laraque but I find it disturbing that a professional hockey player such as him thinks he is worth the 1.4 million dollars. He dont score goals, he isnt a premier goaltender, not the best defensive forward...heck he doesnt even fight that much anymore.

The guy has an annual salary of 1.4 million, thats something most people wont ever see in their lives. I think the leagues superstars should be paid well but guys like Laraque and others who arent the biggest team contributors certainly dont deserve that amount.

Not to mention no one is saying that with a salary cap a player cant get paid as well.

I have lost almost all respect for Laraque and the comments he's made lately. Sure, the guy donates a lot of his time to the community (a lot more than most players) and maybe even a little of his cash, but those types of comments are pathetic.

He should keep his mouth shut on the subject if he's going to make such insane comments. He said something along the lines of it being "crazy that players make 10 million, but 6 or 7 million is understandable". Wake up Georges.

I think Georges is an example of how so many of these guys are completely out of touch with reality.

Among the numerous ridiculous comments was Iginla calling the idea of a salary cap "scary". Puleeze, you think that's scary? What an insult to people who DO live in the real world like us.

[Nanook]

Re: I have a question about the lockout.

Yeah but they still shouldnt of been this idiotic to let it get this bad. I dont think many professional athletes are worth over 2 million. They get to play a game they love while honest working people struggle to pay bills. But in no way do I blame the players in this, this lockout is because the owners cant keep themselves under control. Guys with big pockets dont know how to properly spend money.

In no way you blame the players for this? Wow. So the players are just innocent bystanders in all of this? What about the numerous guys who have held out for more money, refused to report to training camp, demanded to be traded, etc.??? There are many former and current Oilers players alone who have done that in recent years. You don't think they deserve a fair chunk of the blame?

Sure the owners are to blame too, they are the ones writing the cheques, but it's absolutely ridiculous to say the players are not to blame for their behaviour. To not blame them and to put all the blame on the owners and the agents is to say the players are all total morons who are completely incapable of making their own decisions.

I also laugh at this notion of blaming the owners because you're talking about a SMALL minority of owners who fork out the big dough...the ones who have NO clue about hockey and are just excited to sign any big name they can. There are way more financially responsible owners and ownership groups that have only been offering certain contracts to keep their heads above water until Sept 04.

The owners played a role in this for sure, but they are NOT the main reason that we've gotten to this point. I put the vast majority of the blame on the players because we could easily be watching NHL training camp and pre-season games now if they would wake up and realize that they've milked the cow dry.

[Kamal]

Re: I have a question about the lockout.

True, very true. But give them credit for getting together and agreeing to fix this mess.

Yes, I agree. That's my feeling on this as well.

It is definitely the owner's fault for creating the mess.

But give them credit, at least they've woken up and realised that the system has to change and salaries and ticket prices HAVE to go down.

But as for who's responsible for the lockout, it's the players. If they could agree to make less money, there'd be no problem. The reality is, the NHL will fold if salaries don't go down. But Bonehead Bad-en-now is such a greed-head, he can't see this, and he's got the players convinced not to accept a salary cap.

A business is driven by it's bottom line. Sometimes it's simply not possible to give raises if the business isn't doing well.

This lockout reminds me a lot of the Maple Leaf strike we had here a few years ago. The union was DEMANDING raises, and the plant simply wasn't profitable enough to raise salaries. But the union went on strike anyways, and the plant shut down and put 850 people out of work. Those workers would have been better off with no raise than to lose their jobs!

That's the reality of business. A company that's losing over $200M a year (read: the NHL) can't afford to give out raises (duh!), cutbacks are needed.

So I blame the players totally on this one. If they could get the greed out of their eyes, they'd accept a small salary and we'd have Oilers hockey at skyreach again.

Sorry, boyz, but it's tough for me to feel sorry that you have to take a salary cut from $1.7 Million to $1.1 Million a season. Tell you what, I'll trade you my $25,000/year job for yours, deal?!

[Muley69]

Re: I have a question about the lockout.

I may draw a lot of heat for this...but Alberta is the riches province in the country (thanks, in large part, due to revenue resource).

But we are the least unionized as well...and I do think the two are related.


Unions, in my mind, are a road block to the economic success of a company. They rarely cave into concessions required to make a firm economical -- look at Kamal's example, or the Air Line Industry. It seems that Unions, paradoxically, would rather have all their members laid off/fired 'cause a plant shuts down rather than provide concessions!

The NHLPA is no different.

[Beerfish]

Re: I have a question about the lockout.

"It seems that Unions, paradoxically, would rather have all their members laid off/fired 'cause a plant shuts down rather than provide concessions!"

Airline staff have given concessions many times in the past. When does a deal stop becoming a deal? I'd say that workers get a bit pissed off over time when management of companies screw up, keep accepting huge salaries and when the **** hits the fan they either lay off workers or ask for concessions.

I'm certainly not suggesting all unions are a good thing but they take more than their fair share of the blame when things go sour in an industry.

[earl2]

Re: I have a question about the lockout.

IMO most unions deserve more than their fair share of the blame when things go sour. Unions were necessary in this society in the early 1900's but for the most part they are now just as corrupt and greedy as most of the companys they deal with.

[Phrost]

Re: I have a question about the lockout.

In no way you blame the players for this? Wow. So the players are just innocent bystanders in all of this? What about the numerous guys who have held out for more money, refused to report to training camp, demanded to be traded, etc.??? There are many former and current Oilers players alone who have done that in recent years. You don't think they deserve a fair chunk of the blame?

Sure the owners are to blame too, they are the ones writing the cheques, but it's absolutely ridiculous to say the players are not to blame for their behaviour. To not blame them and to put all the blame on the owners and the agents is to say the players are all total morons who are completely incapable of making their own decisions.

I also laugh at this notion of blaming the owners because you're talking about a SMALL minority of owners who fork out the big dough...the ones who have NO clue about hockey and are just excited to sign any big name they can. There are way more financially responsible owners and ownership groups that have only been offering certain contracts to keep their heads above water until Sept 04.

The owners played a role in this for sure, but they are NOT the main reason that we've gotten to this point. I put the vast majority of the blame on the players because we could easily be watching NHL training camp and pre-season games now if they would wake up and realize that they've milked the cow dry.

Yeah I agree the players attitudes at times are ridiculous. But what usually happens when a player holds out or tests the free agent market? An owner spends more money then hes worth to get him. Its the competitve nature of the owners that made the NHL what it is today (and of course the NHLPA for wanting a free market). Joe Sakic and Sergei Federov are two prime examples of cases where the owners got caught up in somewhat of a bidding war. That was years ago but it ultimatly led to the high priced contracts of today.

I should of made things clearer, I dont blame all owners, just high spending ones..most notably the Rangers, Avalanche, and the Leafs.

Its like it is in any form of life. If your at your job and someone offers you 1 million dollars what are you going to do? Stay and work for 500 000 or take the million?

the only blame I really see in the players is the fact that they actually think they deserve to make that much money. The owners were the ones who spent the money and kept bidding up the contracts to try and buy a stanley cup. The salary cap needs to be put in place to protect the owners from each other.

The only other way I can really blame the players is for not realizing the current situation the game is in today. For some reason they dont want to believe that teams are losing money. Sure a lot of them have made a lot of money but its time to wake up and smell the coffee. Almost every professional league runs a cap and its time the NHL followed suit. Until the NHLPA realizes that though we wont be seeing hockey. The thing that baffles me is how they think a cap means players wont make any enough money? Some of them should come live in the real world and make 10-20 bucks an hour.

[Muley69]

Re: I have a question about the lockout.

Airline staff have given concessions many times in the past. When does a deal stop becoming a deal? I'd say that workers get a bit pissed off over time when management of companies screw up, keep accepting huge salaries and when the **** hits the fan they either lay off workers or ask for concessions.

Well, to answer your question, a deal stops becoming a deal when the company will go bankrupt trying to honour it. 'Cause then everyone will be out of a job and the benefits will be scaled back pro-rata accross the board.

You say that it is management of companies that screw up...but do you realize the percentage of revenue that employees make in the Airline Industry? In fact, the pension benefits offered to pilots, as one example (at least in the states) are larger than legally allowed under the U.S. Income Tax Act (don't ask me how they accomplished this...'cause I don't know).


With Air Canada, in particular, I'm surprised that they were able to emerge from bankruptcy protection. But I'll guess we'll see. October 4th will be an interesting day (that's when they are allowed to sell shares again).