Annual 2008 Esksfans - Christmas vs. PC debate

[Deathsdoorstep]

Total and utter nonsense.

When are people going to actually look at issues as the issues themselves and the people as either smart people or morons rather than sticking the right wing, left wing, conservative republican labels on people and issues.

This labelling of things does a great deal of harm to properly evaluating individual issues and creating consensus. It's a major major problem in the political climate these days both in the states and here.

Yes, BF, conservatives are always concerned with political correctness and inclusiveness. It's they who do things like promote affirmative action and attack Christmas.

Wait....they aren't. My bad.

[Giant Moo]

Re: Apparently Cystic Fibrosis Isn't "Inclusive" Enough for Carleton U SA

Yes, BF, conservatives are always concerned with political correctness and inclusiveness. It's they who do things like promote affirmative action and attack Christmas.

Wait....they aren't. My bad.

The War on Christmas! Oh Noes! Lots of great Bill O'Rly videos on YouTube for that one.

[glenvb]

Re: Apparently Cystic Fibrosis Isn't "Inclusive" Enough for Carleton U SA

Yes, BF, conservatives are always concerned with political correctness and inclusiveness. It's they who do things like promote affirmative action and attack Christmas.

Wait....they aren't. My bad.

Do you really believe, DDS, that there aren't conservative nutcases??

And that more than 0.0001% of the population attack Christmas? Come on.

[Deathsdoorstep]

Re: Apparently Cystic Fibrosis Isn't "Inclusive" Enough for Carleton U SA

Do you really believe, DDS, that there aren't conservative nutcases??

And that more than 0.0001% of the population attack Christmas? Come on.

I never said that there weren't conservative nutcases. I only stated that THIS particular kind of nuttiness comes from the left. But there is definitely other kinds of nuttiness that comes from the right.

Does your workplace still have a "Christmas Party"? Or is it a "Holiday" party? How about a nativity scene at city hall? "Holiday" tree anyone? This isn't some BS made up by cranky commentators like Bill O'Reilly. Gimmie a break, mate. Don't act like you haven't been paying attention. Just because you may not have been affected doesn't mean that it hasn't happened to many other people.

[glenvb]

Re: Apparently Cystic Fibrosis Isn't "Inclusive" Enough for Carleton U SA

Does your workplace still have a "Christmas Party"? Or is it a "Holiday" party? How about a nativity scene at city hall? "Holiday" tree anyone? This isn't some BS made up by cranky commentators like Bill O'Reilly. Gimmie a break, mate. Don't act like you haven't been paying attention. Just because you may not have been affected doesn't mean that it hasn't happened to many other people.

We have a Christmas party. It's a week from Friday, if you'd like to come. We had the same at my previous job in Vermont. Both are secular workplaces leaning strongly to the left wing, and it's never come up once.

Besides, who really cares? You want a Christmas party, go ahead. You want a Christmas tree, there are thousands of places trying to sell you one. It's a free country. No one's stopping you. Not even the nutcases.

This is a manufactured controversy designed by activists to foment Christian conservative anger for political purposes, nothing more. And as a devout Christian, I find the whole thing manipulative and offensive.

[Deathsdoorstep]

Re: Apparently Cystic Fibrosis Isn't "Inclusive" Enough for Carleton U SA

We have a Christmas party. It's a week from Friday, if you'd like to come. We had the same at my previous job in Vermont. Both are secular workplaces leaning strongly to the left wing, and it's never come up once.

Besides, who really cares? You want a Christmas party, go ahead. You want a Christmas tree, there are thousands of places trying to sell you one. It's a free country. No one's stopping you. Not even the nutcases.

This is a manufactured controversy designed by activists to foment Christian conservative anger for political purposes, nothing more. And as a devout Christian, I find the whole thing manipulative and offensive.

It's a real assault on the reason for the season. You won't believe it until it happens to you.

[Giant Moo]

Re: Apparently Cystic Fibrosis Isn't "Inclusive" Enough for Carleton U SA

I never said that there weren't conservative nutcases. I only stated that THIS particular kind of nuttiness comes from the left. But there is definitely other kinds of nuttiness that comes from the right.

Does your workplace still have a "Christmas Party"? Or is it a "Holiday" party? How about a nativity scene at city hall? "Holiday" tree anyone? This isn't some BS made up by cranky commentators like Bill O'Reilly. Gimmie a break, mate. Don't act like you haven't been paying attention. Just because you may not have been affected doesn't mean that it hasn't happened to many other people.

More panicking! Oh Noes! The word "Holiday" is ruining Christmas for everyone!

A long while back on fark.com there was a thread which featured newspaper advertisements from a looooong time ago using the term "holiday" instead of Christmas. Nothing much has changed in a hundred years. There's just more TV trying to sell ad space. Inciting people to feel persecuted works like a charm for that.

[Giant Moo]

Re: Apparently Cystic Fibrosis Isn't "Inclusive" Enough for Carleton U SA

It's a real assault on the reason for the season. You won't believe it until it happens to you.

[glenvb]

Re: Apparently Cystic Fibrosis Isn't "Inclusive" Enough for Carleton U SA

It's a real assault on the reason for the season. You won't believe it until it happens to you.

OK DDS, if you really care about preserving the Christian spirit of Christmas...then what's more objectionable? Somebody using the term "holiday tree"... or the entire "reason for the season" being subverted into a gift-buying orgy? Even worse, convincing kids that there's a fake mythical creature dressed in red, bringing gifts with flying reindeer?

Santa Claus and gift-buying is a MILLION times more prevalent, and more subverting of the true meaning of Christmas, than a "holiday tree". And it's been happening for a lot longer.

If you really are interested in preserving the reason for the season, go after Santa Claus.

[Deathsdoorstep]

Re: Apparently Cystic Fibrosis Isn't "Inclusive" Enough for Carleton U SA

OK DDS, if you really care about preserving the Christian spirit of Christmas...then what's more objectionable? Somebody using the term "holiday tree"... or the entire "reason for the season" being subverted into a gift-buying orgy? Even worse, convincing kids that there's a fake mythical creature dressed in red, bringing gifts with flying reindeer?

Santa Claus and gift-buying is a MILLION times more prevalent, and more subverting of the true meaning of Christmas, than a "holiday tree". And it's been happening for a lot longer.

If you really are interested in preserving the reason for the season, go after Santa Claus.

I disagree. To me, I don't care if there are secular aspects to Christmas. I object to secular co-option of religious aspects of Christmas, to the removal of the word "Christmas" from Christmas, and to those who are nutty enough to find baby Jesus offensive.

Furthermore, Santa Claus, to me, does not represent rampant commercialism or any kind of orgy. He represents the giving and accountability that Jesus does, but in a form that non-believers are comfortable with. I'm a-okay with that.

Also, I do not object to the "orgy of gift buying" at Christmas. The gifts are being given to others. Not a damned thing wrong with that. It's not "buy stuff for yourself" day. Yes, "The Holidays" get advertised and commercialized. But the only thing that pisses me off about that is when the commercial talks about what you should get people for "the holidays" because they're too chicken **** to say the word "Christmas".

The fact that we've based the survival of our economy around the birth of Christ doesn't bother me one little teensy bit.

[Opus]

Re: Apparently Cystic Fibrosis Isn't "Inclusive" Enough for Carleton U SA

Am I the only one who still believes in Santa?

That something or someone can be a focal point of hope for goodwill and the innocence of childhood, real or not?

He's real enough for me.......

[glenvb]

Re: Apparently Cystic Fibrosis Isn't "Inclusive" Enough for Carleton U SA

I disagree. To me, I don't care if there are secular aspects to Christmas. I object to secular co-option of religious aspects of Christmas, to the removal of the word "Christmas" from Christmas, and to those who are nutty enough to find baby Jesus offensive.

Furthermore, Santa Claus, to me, does not represent rampant commercialism or any kind of orgy. He represents the giving and accountability that Jesus does, but in a form that non-believers are comfortable with. I'm a-okay with that.

Also, I do not object to the "orgy of gift buying" at Christmas. The gifts are being given to others. Not a damned thing wrong with that. It's not "buy stuff for yourself" day. Yes, "The Holidays" get advertised and commercialized. But the only thing that pisses me off about that is when the commercial talks about what you should get people for "the holidays" because they're too chicken **** to say the word "Christmas".

The fact that we've based the survival of our economy around the birth of Christ doesn't bother me one little teensy bit.

Seems like we're continuing a new annual tradition with this little debate!

I'm not bothered by gift-giving either.

However, if (as you say) you want to preserve "the reason for the season"....

What's more likely to take a kid's mind off of the true message of Christmas, walking past a "holiday tree", or spending the entire Christmas Eve service wondering whether that box under his tree is an Xbox?

You're tilting at meaningless windmills. If you really want to preserve Christmas, rail at something more significant. Suggest that we save our economy on Dec. 26 instead of Dec. 25. Then you'll meaningfully stop the secular co-option of religious aspects of Christmas.

[Giant Moo]

Re: Apparently Cystic Fibrosis Isn't "Inclusive" Enough for Carleton U SA

I disagree. To me, I don't care if there are secular aspects to Christmas. I object to secular co-option of religious aspects of Christmas, to the removal of the word "Christmas" from Christmas, and to those who are nutty enough to find baby Jesus offensive.

Christmas was invented to co-opt existing religious ceremonies, like the winter solstice (Saturnalia), by people who were nutty enough to find them there pagans offensive.

[Deathsdoorstep]

Re: Apparently Cystic Fibrosis Isn't "Inclusive" Enough for Carleton U SA

Seems like we're continuing a new annual tradition with this little debate!

I'm not bothered by gift-giving either.

However, if (as you say) you want to preserve "the reason for the season"....

What's more likely to take a kid's mind off of the true message of Christmas, walking past a "holiday tree", or spending the entire Christmas Eve service wondering whether that box under his tree is an Xbox?

You're tilting at meaningless windmills. If you really want to preserve Christmas, rail at something more significant. Suggest that we save our economy on Dec. 26 instead of Dec. 25. Then you'll meaningfully stop the secular co-option of religious aspects of Christmas.

I think that no matter what you do, kids are going to get hyped for Christmas presents. And if you decide to forego the presents in favor of a huge donation, you teach your kids that giving is fine, as long as its not to them.

Saving our economy on the 26th won't save the reason for the season. Stopping the "scared to say Christmas" nonsense and stopping the cowaring to the "offended by everything religious" crowd will be the real deal, mate.

[Deathsdoorstep]

Re: Apparently Cystic Fibrosis Isn't "Inclusive" Enough for Carleton U SA

Christmas was invented to co-opt existing religious ceremonies, like the winter solstice (Saturnalia), by people who were nutty enough to find them there pagans offensive.

Yeah....2000 years ago.

Besides, Christmas wasn't invented to co-opt other religions. The date they settled on to celebrate the birth of Christ, which was unkown, was.